What follows is a listing of the 100 greatest hockey players of all time, in my opinion. As discussed earlier, the definition of greatness is a very personalized endeavor and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
While there is no way of ever truly ranking the top 100 definitively, it is important for the creators of such lists to be open and transparent of how the came to their conclusions. That accountability allows the reader to better understand the process.
Although admittedly I'm using a completely unscientific formula, I weigh career achievements (era statistics, awards, championships) and legacy (impact on and off ice, peak dominance) equally high. I rank player ability as the third most important ingredient, as first and foremost as a tie breaker. Hence, I'm not necessarily looking for the better player, as in text book definitions of what a hockey player should be, but for players with the greatest careers and greatest legacies. Therefore the best player is not necessarily the greatest player.
The list actually came together fairly quickly, because I constantly cross-referenced other lists. I first ranked players by position, and by era, and by nationality. When I created my master list of the top 100 players of all time, I held myself accountable by staying true to those previously made lists. Some tweaking was necessary, of course, but before I adjusted the top 100 list, I had to make sure I stayed true to my original lists.
Without further ado, I present the GreatestHockeyLegends.com Top 100 Greatest Hockey Players of All Time:
1. Wayne Gretzky (C) - "The Great One" wanted to be the best every day. He was not the most physically gifted, but with unmatchable passion and intelligence he did more with less. More than anyone else, by leaps and bounds.Although admittedly I'm using a completely unscientific formula, I weigh career achievements (era statistics, awards, championships) and legacy (impact on and off ice, peak dominance) equally high. I rank player ability as the third most important ingredient, as first and foremost as a tie breaker. Hence, I'm not necessarily looking for the better player, as in text book definitions of what a hockey player should be, but for players with the greatest careers and greatest legacies. Therefore the best player is not necessarily the greatest player.
The list actually came together fairly quickly, because I constantly cross-referenced other lists. I first ranked players by position, and by era, and by nationality. When I created my master list of the top 100 players of all time, I held myself accountable by staying true to those previously made lists. Some tweaking was necessary, of course, but before I adjusted the top 100 list, I had to make sure I stayed true to my original lists.
Without further ado, I present the GreatestHockeyLegends.com Top 100 Greatest Hockey Players of All Time:
2. Bobby Orr (D) - The perfect hockey player. I would concede he had the greatest career if he lasted longer. Unfortunately that if always enters that conversation, making it impossible for me to grant him top billing.
3. Gordie Howe (RW) - Hockey is a man's game. "Mr. Hockey" is the man. Both Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky will tell you Gordie was the greatest player ever.
4. Mario Lemieux (C) - Super Mario was the most gifted player ever, even more talented than Bobby Orr. The same if enters the conversations regarding Lemieux.
5. Rocket Richard (RW) - More than a hockey player: Rocket's incomparable legacy transcended the game to reach religious levels in Quebec and beyond. Simply amazing.
6. Jean Beliveau (C) - Head of the Class: Hockey's original gentle giant set the standard of class and excellence in Montreal that lasts to this day.
7. Bobby Hull (LW) - The Golden Jet reached amazing heights. He one of the rare true superstars in a sporting world that overuses that term far too liberally.
8. Guy Lafleur (RW) - Every goal was an event for The Flower
9. Eddie Shore (D) - Old Time Hockey! Eddie Shore was the main event in the hockey world in the early days of the NHL's existence. He dominated and entertained like few others all from the blue line. Only Orr joins Shore as defensemen who were the best player in the world.
10. Patrick Roy (G) - St. Patrick saved the day. I figure each block of 10 in my ranking of 100 should have at least one goaltender. Patrick Roy is universally considered to be the greatest goalie of all time.
11-20
Doug Harvey (D) - Firewagon Hockey
Stan Mikita (C) - Overshadowed by Hull, Mikita may have been better
Howie Morenz (C) - The NHL's first superstar
Dominik Hasek (G) - Unorthodox Dominator reached highest peak
Ray Bourque (D) - Out of the shadows of Orr
Mark Messier (C) - Edmonton's native son became Manhattan's messiah
Sidney Crosby (C) - Player of Destiny
Jaromir Jagr (RW) - Based on talent alone, Jagr is a top ten player
Phil Esposito (C) - The Most Underrated Superstar?
Mike Bossy (RW) - The best pure goal scorer of all time?
21-30
Steve Yzerman (C) - Stevie Wonder did it all
Jacques Plante (G) - Plante changed the face of hockey
Nicklas Lidstrom (D) - Ageless Wonder
Denis Potvin (D) - Captain of the Isles dynasty
Ted Lindsay (LW) - Anything but terrible
Bryan Trottier (C) - The most complete player of his day
Joe Sakic (C) - No Ordinary Joe
Henri Richard (C) - Overshadowed, but little brother was more complete player
Valeri Kharlamov (LW) - Soviet star never had chance to play in NHL
Larry Robinson (D) - The prototypical NHL defenseman for any era
31-40
Paul Coffey (D) - Greatest skater rivalled Orr's heights
Terry Sawchuk (G) - Perfect Goalie, Imperfect World
Vladislav Tretiak (G) - A hero's legacy on both sides of the Atlantic
Red Kelly (D) - Superstar at two positions
Alexander Ovechkin (LW) - Alexander The Great
Marcel Dionne (C) - Scoring King
Bobby Clarke (C) - Great Villain, Great Hero
Viacheslav Fetisov (D) - Freedom Fighter
King Clancy (D) - Heart of the Maple Leafs
Jari Kurri (RW) - More Than A Wing Man
41-50
Peter Stastny (C) - Second Highest Scoring Player of 1980s
Boom Boom Geoffrion (RW) - Loud And Proud
Martin Brodeur (G) - Hockey's Winningest Goalie
Peter Forsberg (C) - Swede Sensation
Glenn Hall (G) - Mr. Goalie
Brett Hull (RW) - Hull of a shot
Frank Mahovlich (LW) - The Big M
Ron Francis (C) - Quiet Excellence
Milt Schmidt (C) - Mr. Boston Bruins
Dickie Moore (LW) - The Man Who Would Make The Fans Forget About The Rocket
51-60
Ken Dryden (G) - The Thinker
Syl Apps (C) - The Perfect Gentleman
Bill Durnan (G) - Ambidextrous Puck Stopper
Sergei Makarov (RW) - Rushin' Russia
Cyclone Taylor (D) - Hockey's First Legend
Brad Park (D) - In Bobby's Shadow
Bill Cook (RW) - Greatest Right Winger Before Howe, Richard
Ted Kennedy (C) - Heart of the Leafs Dynasty
Max Bentley (C) - Dipsy Doodle Dandy
Teemu Selanne (RW) - The Finnish Flash
61-70
Borje Salming (D) - Hockey's Most Important Player?
Chris Chelios (D) - Captain America
Newsy Lalonde (C) - Extra! Extra!
Chris Pronger (D) - Dastardly Good
Scott Stevens (D) - Captain Crunch
Pierre Pilote (D) - Last Of His Kind
Bill Cowley (C) - Early Day Gretzky
Gilbert Perreault (C) - Gil The Thrill
Dit Clapper (D) - Star Forward, Superstar Defenseman
Joe Malone (C) - NHL's First Scoring Star
71-80
Charlie Conacher (RW) - The Big Bomber
Elmer Lach (C) - Centre of Attention
Dave Keon (C) - Beloved Maple Leaf
Jonathan Toews - Captain Serious
Eric Lindros (C) - Reviled But Dominant
Luc Robitaille (LW) - Cool Hand Luc
Frank Boucher (C) - A Beautiful Mind
Johnny Bucyk (LW) - Boston's Chief
Andy Bathgate (RW) - Sharp Shooter
Turk Broda (G) - Playoff Hero
81-90
Tim Horton (D) - Blue Line Stud to Coffee Legend
Brian Leetch (D) - American Beauty
Serge Savard (D) - Minister of Defense
Sergei Fedorov (C) - Larger Than Life
Frank Nighbor (C) - Early Genius
Busher Jackson (LW) - Controversial Superstar
Bernie Parent (G) - Philly's Playoff MVP
Toe Blake (LW) - Great Player Turned Great Coach
Doug Bentley (LW) - No One Trick Pony
Charlie Gardiner (G) - The Smiling Scotsman
91-100
Pavel Bure (RW) - The Russian Rocket
Scott Niedermayer (D) - Hockey's Winningest Man
Pavel Datsyuk (C) - Dats Incredible!
Aurel Joliat (LW) - The Little Giant
Earl Siebert (D) - Rearguard Roughian
Al MacInnis (D) - Big Shot
Bob Gainey (LW) - Admired By Russians
Sid Abel (C) - Enabling The Production Line
Johnny Bower (G) - The China Wall
Yvan Cournoyer (RW) - The Roadrunner
124 comments:
Martin Brodeur below the top 40? THat is a joke.
Not really Brodeur is overrated. He was never even top 2 in save percentage...
With all due respect--I don't believe Lindros should qualify for this list..Also, sticking strictly to "legends," Bobby Baun and Paul Henderson accomplished much greater and memorable legendary feats than Lindros..
Thank you very much for taking the time to put together and posting the list though..
Leaving off Cam Neely who defined the term 'Power Forward' is a omission. I still rate Orr - even with the shortned career - above Gretsky. Sorry but my eyes told me something different when it came to seeing Orr vs. Gretzky.
There's a certain breed of troll that prowls the internet looking for lists that don't have Martin Brodeur as the #1 goalie of all-time or top-10 among all players. Don't mind them, Joe.
I would argue for dominik hasek as the greatest goalie of all time even by your criteria (though certainly by mine)
I don't think people give Milt Schmidt enough credit. His offensive numbers were not that high but he was spoken of just under Richard and Howe in his era. He was the best 2 way player in the game.
Neely should be on the list and Parent should be higher. Alos, I think that Hasek should be the #1 rated Goalie as well. He did more with less.
No Adam Oates?
@ Carlos Saldivia
Bobby Baun and Paul Henderson were not even top 30 players at any point in their careers. Why would they make this list over Lindros?
Well, it´s a top 100 from Canadian and NHL point of view. In Europe in 70´s and 80´s the only possibility we could see best canadian players was through Canada Cup and Summit Series.
In 1972 Canada played with USSR seven tight games. From canadian roster there are 10 players on your list, from Soviet roster 2.
In 1976 Canada played in Canada Cup three games with Czechoslovakia, two were very tight. From canadian roster there are 11 players on your list, from CSSR roster 1.
In 1981 Soviets defeated Canada 8:1 in the finals. From canadian roster there are 11 players on your list, from SSSR roster 3.
I understand international games were not the main criterion of your list, but still I think this is quite lopsided. Players like Firsov, Vasiliev, Maltsev, Suchy, Nedomansky, Petrov, Jakushev, Holecek, Larionov, Hlinka, Novy, Martinec, Krutov, Kasatonov etc. were same as good as say Clarke, Cournoyer, Dionne, Robinson, Potvin, Trottier, Parent or Dryden. On the other hand there are couple of canadian players whose legacy was far greater in Europe than in Canada, goalie Seth Martin comes to mind.
Even though I have a different view, I appreciate your effort, it´s evident you thought your list carefully over and I´ll sure spend quite a few winter evenings with it.
Nice list, where impact on the game has more value than "who scored more goals".
Neely.. he may be a god in Boston (I like him a lot) BUT without Janney/Oates or another comparable playmaker he would have been a 25goalscorer in a high scoring era messing defensemen up against the boards.
"Defined the Term Power forward"..Already before Neely there have been players who could score and were initimidating as shit (with hits and fists), e.g. Al Secord, Clark Gillies.
I still can't understand how underestimated Lindros ist.
The only thing he didn't have was a puppet string attached to his helmet to keep his head up. The first HUGE guy who combined size, monstrous hitting ability, skating, scoring, playmaking. A true one-man-show. Way bigger impact on the game than neely.
Just my opinion.
@Anonymous
When I was posting the comment, I looked up to see the title of the post and misread it as "100 greatest "LEGENDS" of All Time," instead of Greatest Players..
Sticking "strictly to legends," Bobby Baun and Paul Henderson, IMHO, accomplished much greater and memorable legendary feats than Lindros (that is to say, no question at all that Lindros was greater, but Baun and Henderson are more legendary due to their individual feats--Baun 1964 Finals Gm 6-7 -- Henderson 1972 GW goal in Summit Series)..
Oates: 6th in assists, only one of top 12 in career assists not on the list. (Top 7 in season assists 12 times)
Gartner: 6th in goals only one of top 12 in career goals not on the list. (Ranks 2nd all time for Caps in G, A, P.)
Yeah Brodeur is a great goaltender, but until he surpasses Roy for playoff wins, he won't be considered greatest goaltender of all time.
In fact, I would iterate that Roy could challenge Gretzky and Orr for #1 of all time. He was the greatest clutch player and was probably the closest player to "win the Cup by himself." Gretzky had Kurri and Coffey, Orr had Esposito and Bouwer. Roy's 1993 Habs did have Rob Brown and Denis Savard, great stars in their own right, but a stratosphere below Orr's or Gretzky's best teammates.
Roy was arguably the real captain of the Habs. Captain Guy Carbonneau was rumoured to be on his last legs in 1993, his Habs not expected to go far, but it was Roy who thrust them to the top.
Rob Brown never played for the Canadiens (wasn't a star either).
The '93 Canadiens were similar to Florida in '96, disciplined team defense and a hot goalie.
But Roy's "heroics" are overrated IMO.
In his Montreal days he played for a franchise that had been playing one of the most disciplined team defenses for decades. And in Colorado he simply joined one of the most talented and deepest teams.
In '93 let's not forget about McSorley. Without the measurement of Marty's stick in Game 2 probably nobody would remember Roy in '93.
Giguere in '03 was way more valuable than Roy in '93. Five Shutouts to none..
Best Goalie?
Modern day era it's Hasek, no comparism. Before that I haven't seen any of the oldtimers..
Joe, thanks for your effort. I appreciate it everytime I read about a player who I couldn't find in my Hockey Scouting Reports :)
Great list Joe. I suppose I could add/subtract a few .... BUT only one real omission for me ..... CAM NEELY!
Great list. My only tweak would be moving Roy; maybe it's just because I'm a Wings fan but I certainly saw massive ego-induced goof-ups on his part. i go with Sawchuk.
No Neely; no player has benefited more from ESPN "discovering" hockey than Neely. Revisionist hockey has him as THE power forward when he played in an era when there were plenty. Neely was good, but if it weren't for the fact that he played in Boston I don't think he even makes the HoF.
No Phil Housley and how good do you think Gretsky would have been playing d or during an earlier era where he would have to pay for every point he made. He was protected doesn't deserve Orrs number one spot
Great List. No complaints.
Ummm... ever hear of Evgeni Malkin??
How do you leave a guy with two scoring titles and a Conn Smythe off a top *100* list?
how can you forget Pavel Bure???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMFUJfqWqrk
Re: Bure - take a closer look bud. He's there.
Well done but if you are considering legends where is Darryl Sittler? Sittler was a scoring force on a mediocre Leaf team in the 70's. He also scored the Canada Cup winning goal in '76 and had a record 6 goal 4 assist night at MLG against the Bruins in February 7,1976.
There's Bobby Orr, then there's everyone else. Orr was sick. His YouTube documentaries are a must-see for any hockey fan.
Eric Lindros.Are you kidding.A selfish,over rated,hack.Tirned,his back on the Nordiques.And we all,know what they did,later.
Mike Modano, I guess he isn't there because he's from the U.S. There seems to be a bit of national prejudice in this list. Anyway the Sakic/Roy vs Modano/Belfour playoffs were remarkable. In fact The Hockey News did a really nice dual article on Modano and Sakic because of how similar their talent and careers were and because of their mutual respect for each other. I think it was 2006 or around that time when I saw the article. Mike Modano pretty much made hockey a success in the city of Dallas where it would otherwise have floundered and eventually be de-expanded or moved.
I would add Paul Kariya, JS Giguere, Jarome Iginla, Cam Neely and well . . . Hayley Wickenheiser and Manon Rheame just because they had the balls to try. And Theo Fleury if for no other reason than as a cautionary tale.
Thanks for making the list, it was a fun read and Lindros deserves to be there, disliking someone makes it difficult for less mature people to accept someone's talent but he was dominant in the game and its obvious from his career.
Gretzky is rightly #1 on this list. How would the NHL look today had he not been traded to the Kings? I bet quite a few less teams. Gone would be the Lightning, Panthers, Sharks, Ducks, Predators, Senators, Coyotes, Blue Jackets, and Wild. The Jets would have not left Winnipeg. Atlanta wouldn't have lost a SECOND team to Canada. And #99 would still be available for use in the NHL.
But what is Ovechkin doing above Selänne? By any measure he ain't better yet
This might sound blastphemous to some purists, but I think Crosby should be higher. In the top 15 at the very least if not the top 10. I'm comparitively young, but I've watched pretty much all of the post-Gretzky era, which has probably been the most competitive never mind international era in hockey history, and he is without question the most gifted player I've ever seen.
He's already proven himself to be not just a winner but a leader on winning teams on both the international and club levels, both in Junior and Senior. But on a personal level, there are absolutely no glaring flaws with his game. Some guys are better scorers than Crosby (Ovechkin), some are better stickhandlers or better defensively (Datsyuk), but Crosby is elite level at everything, which is what makes him so dangerous. (Not to mention he's the best passer in the league, has the best instincts, and is the hardest to take off of the puck). Right now he's absolutely dominating the best conditioned set of athletes in the NHL.
In terms of absolute legacy, I'm not completely ignorant of the past. I wouldn't put him at a level with Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr. I'd probably even put him below Howe. But I think he already belongs in a class with Richard and Beliveau for sure on the basis of pure talent. Consider he has the fourth-highest points per game right now in the history of the game, and set a lot of NHL records.
Moreover, Hasek should be higher too. He's criminally underrated.
Crosby is no way deserves to be in the top 10-15. In fact, in terms of career accomplishments (1 scoring title and 1 MVP by the age of 26) he shouldn't even be in the top 50. There's no way he should be ahead of Selanne, Lindros, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, Fedorov, etc. He is one of the most overrated players in recent memory. Don't let NBC tell you otherwise.
I wouldn't put Crosby in the top 10, either, but to say he doesn't deserve to be there is just your opinion. Since 1970, the only players I have seen with more talent then Crosby are Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux. The title is 100 greatest hockey players, not greatest nhl careers.
I guess that the top three could be debated. The game has changed so much from Howe's beginning to Gretzky's.It's hard to compare over the different eras.They were all great in their time.
I was a kid in Montreal during the 50's and an avid fan of the Canadiens. as great as Jacques Plante was we all knew Sawchuck was
the greatest.
I am missing a us flag flying high here... the whole list is such a pile of bullshit, just a simple minded american mongoloid can put his together in this order.
how is datsyuk 92 out of 100
Longevity of superior play is the biggest reason I would alter the top 3. I don't think there is any sane arguement for not having Howe/Gretzky/Orr in some order as the top three. Only one of those players was a MAJOR factor in the game for as many as five decades. Rookie in '47 (though he lost the ROY to Howie Meeker - mistake in hindsight? Perhaps.) Superstar in the 50s, 60s, and 70s - and he was a driving force in the WHA merger - Howe is my #1
Lemieux and Orr are the two best. Gretzky had Messier Kurri and Coffey.
Lemieux had Jagr and cancer. He played half the amount of games Gretzky played
No Claude Giroux? THAT is a joke!
I think more of the great Soviet Union Player's deserve to be considered in the Top 100 and if the Officiating during the 1987 Canada Cup was not so obviously biased against the Soviet's that Year the Soviet Union would have won the 1987 Canada Cup!
Lemieux had a lot more than just Jagr. (Ron Francis, Paul Coffey, Mullen, Murphy, Recchi...do Penguins fans not realize how great the team around him was?) but I'd put Lemieux at #2 overall.
I'd put Crosby much lower as his career isn't near over and while he and Evgeni Malkin are highly marketed the Penguins haven't been a great playoff team under his leadership ever since Malkin has no longer been on an ELC. Part of that is just the salary cap era, but they haven't shown the ability to lead the team back to the Finals without that great team around them.
Lindros belongs higher because before he was injured he was the second most dominant player I've ever seen (behind Lemieux). If he'd ever had a team around hior even another abover average center to draw some attention away from him he would be much higher on the list...instead he spent his whole prime facing everything the other team had to offer. In today's game Stevens would be given 5-10 games and Lindros would have been given time to heal properly, just like Crosby was. He's been disliked (by everyone,even Philly it seems) but really, for how much longer are we going to hate a man for what he did at 18? Lemieux wouldn't even stand up when the Pens drafted him...we seem to have gotten over that.
Good your on my side Hasek always beat Roy and has the greatest career save percentage of all time for gods sake
No Mike Modano?
Bernie Parent Phil/Tor goalie.
Quite a list. Clearly number 1 must be either Gretzky or Orr. I have always place Orr at the top of the list because hockey before and after Orr were different games. In his short hockey life, he altered the whole role of the defense, and so, the way the game is played. Gretzky was a remarkable hockey lusus naturae (with remarkable statistics) who did much for publicizing hockey. But since "the game's the thing", my nod would go to Orr! Still, an excellent list.
I'm 56. As a young man we lived in Boston during the Orr era. He completely revolutionized the game. He was the very fastest skater I ever saw. He blocked shots. His slap shot on the point is still the deadliest ever. He was simply electrifying. Gretzky was an incomparable passer and was surrounded by sharpshooters on Edmonton. Nobody ruled the power play like Gretzky. I don't know who you could possibly rate #1. Flip a coin.
Was Denis Potvin on the list? He was an amazing athlete and a giant on the power play.
Its only cause scott stevens and nedermier were his defensemen why he's even got a record
As you say, both bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky claim that Gordie Howe was the greatest of all time. Orr says his reason is that Howe could play it any way you wanted, speed, skill, shot, even ambidextrous - shooting left or right. But if you wanted bump and grind he was mr. Elbows in the corners. You want to get rough? Ask ". Leaping Lou Fontinato (NYR), or check the famous LIFE magazine cover of the two of them. Anyway, who am I to argue with Bobby or Wayne?
Thanks for a great list.
Mike
As a swede (european) hockeyfan born 1983, it´s nice to learn about old NHL-players like Sawchuk, Plante, Harvey, Shore, Believeau, Mikita and more.
I grew up under the 90`s and with collecttors album (stickers) and trading cards dlid I learn me about NHL and the stars,like Roy, Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier.
In the Beckett paper u could also see that cards at players like Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr and Bobby Hull was valuable.
When they talk about international icehockey history at media here in Sweden, it mostly is about the Soviets biggest days. The old people who works in media could talk about Firsov, Petrov, Michailov, Charlamov, Ragulin, Maltsev, Tretiak, Fetisov, Larionov, Makarov, Krutov etc.
But the "Miracle On Ice" with US team and the big games at 70`s and 80`s between Canada and Soviet are big history here too..
It´s interested to see Hockey News listing of top-20 players at their position..
At my point of view european players like Hasek, Lidström, Forsberg, Sundin, Jagt and Selänne are phenomen that should be a higher up at the lists..
And the Soviet players i wrote higher up in my comment have so many big titles in WC and OG for their ountry.. For me, it´s unbelievable that for a example Kovalchuk (is it just for he played in NHL) are ranked better that all his older countrymen..
For me hockey is about winning too, not just score many Points and play for himself..
What Hasek did at Olympics 1998 was the perfect tournament, he was phenomenal all the way and took his Czech National Team to Gold Medal, beating all the Canada´s penalty shooters in Semi and then had a "shutout" against the Russians in the Final..
I just can compare him with Roy and Brodeur, also 2 fantastic goaltenders but for me Hasek is the biggest.
Jagr has won it all, Stanley Cup, Olympics and WC with Czech National Team, also Hart Trophy and Art Ross Trophy.. Never say no to his homeland, fantastic player..
Even if I am swede (Finland biggest rival) I am so impressed of Selänne, MVP in Olympics both 2006 and 2014. Unbelieveable talented player scoring 132 points as a rookie in the NHL, showed in Sochi (OG) how intelligent player he is, so glad for him he won Stanley Cup with Ducks..
Now I come to "our own players" Lidström, Forsberg and Sundin..
Lidström: 4 Stanley Cup, 7 Norris Trophy, 1 Conn Smythe Trophy also won the OG with Sweden (did the clinching goal in the Final) and WC (1991). That says it all, also a fantastic leader both on and of the ice..
Forsberg: Almost all the kids here in Sweden had him as a idol when they grew up.. Sweden´s most talented player ever, so much skills and so much fighing spirit.. U knowed when he was on your team that the game never was over, always fighting to the end, hate to lose..
2 Stanley Cup, 2 gold in the Olympic Games (clinching penalty goal against Canada in the Final 1994, classic goal in Swedish hockey history), 2 golds in WC, also won Art Ross Trophy and Hart Trophy.. Member of Triple Gold Club (SC, OG, WC) at the age of 22, did 31 Points a 7 games in the U20 WC, probably an unbeatable reord..
Without injuries he would be even bigger..
Sundin: Fantastic player and leader that hasn´t the same luck as Lidström and Forsberg with good teammates in the NHL.. When Lidström had good player as Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk and more.. Forsberg had Sakic, Blake, Roy and more, Sundin had almost nothing in Maple Leafs..
Now he had to lead the club by his own and did it very well, but with better players around him, his NHL-career had been bigger, sad but true.. Very loyal player..
the Swedish National Team ever..
1991, same year as he should get 20 years, he shoot Sweden to Gold Medal in WC and break down the Soviets dominance of international hockey..
He also won the WC 1992 and 1998, but the biggest moment of his career was of course when he lead the Swedish National Team as captain to the Gold Medal in the Olympic Games 2006..
Almost every time Sundin played for his country he was a dominant player in the tournaments and often was in the All-Star Team..
Ya i almost missed bure too!
Lemieux will always be #1 in my book..Gretzky#2..Orr#3...Howe#4 and Bobby Hull #5
Orr changed the way defenseman played..Gretzky transended the sport globally...But just on the eye test Lemieux was the best player I've ever seen...
Overall a pretty good list, whenever I see these I think there should be a list by era and a separate list for Goalies. Having seen Orr, Gretz and Lemieux in their prime I would have 1) Orr, 2) Gretzky, 3) Lemieux, 4) Howe, 5) The Rocket, 6) Beliveau, 7) Hull (Bobby), 8) Potvin, 9) Shore, 10) Lindsey. As for my separate top 5 list for Goalies: 1) Dryden, 2) Plante, 3) Sawchuck, 4)Hall, 5) Parent
Love the list. However, Messier has to be top 10, and you forgot Hayley Wickenheiser. Great female players too!
Just my two cents....Brodeur should be higher than all goalies except maybe Roy. He has all the records and Cups.
Crosby and Ovi are still too high (yet). Ovi in particular. Awful player in big games.
Bossy should be higher. Again, shortened career though but the numbers suggest he might be the greatest sniper of alltime.
How is Mike Modano not on here when others who weren't near as good are?
where is steven stamkos
The fact Sundin isn't on the list is laughable. He put up great numbers and played with no remarkable players. He made non-remarkable players achieve more than they ever should.
When he did play with remarkable players, he was dominant on the world scene, against other top countries in the world.
Sundin top 20 for sure - not based on his points alone, but based on what he did on the ice for all players around him. He made everyone better....
He won eight World Hockey Championships and won two Olympic Gold Medals. He also won numerous best player awards at the World Championships. Without Kharlamov the Soviets would never have dominated on the world stage like they did. He absolutely should have been in the 1981 Canada Cup squad but was unfairly left out by his coach,Tikhonov. Sadly Kharlamov was unable to continue his career after he was killed in a car accident just after being told he would not be in the Canada Cup squad. Another player who I feel should be included somewhere (perhaps not top 50 but somewhere in the list) is Teemu Selanne. He never won a World Championship, but received numerous individual accolades and won the Stanley Cup on one occasion. This mediocre trophy hall belies his true talent. He holds both the records for goals and assists by a rookie and won Finnish Player of the Year on 9 occasions. This is no easy feet in a country in love with ice hockey. HE also holds the record for most points in an Olympic Career for any player. I believe these personal statistics make Selanne deserving of a place on this list.
The list really is North America biased to the extreme.
Jagr won the Art Ross five times for crying out loud.
And where are the Soviets?!?
", I weigh career achievements (era statistics, awards, championships) and legacy (impact on and off ice, peak dominance) equally high."
Only counting NHL, it seems... No other leagues nor international games.
By default, European players start their careers in other leagues and have a hard time accumulating the same NHL-statistics as the North Americans.
Yet, European players have done very well in the Art Ross since the Gretzky Lemieux era.
Hard to believe. No Hall of Famer Bernie Federko or Iron Man Gary Unger???
"Patrick Roy is universally considered to be the greatest goalie of all time."
That's a lie. Outside of Canada and Colorado Hasek is considered the greatest Goalie of all-time by most. Because he is.
Luc Robitaille is BELOW Eric Lindros? You know he scored 40 or more goals 8 times........consecutively.
No Bondra is second all time on the goals list. Ovechkin overtook him this season. Gartner is third all time in caps history in goals.
Bondra wouldn't make the top 500
He's also a stand up goaltender (less rebounds) that played the puck beutifully (less zone time) that won the most. This comment is just invalid. I love when people say he's not the best. it shows that you have bias against him.
Even though he couldn't winna cup until he was put on the greatest team of all time.
Brodeur has the most wins, playoff wins, shutouts, and several other records. Your telling me the only way he gets one is by breaking another one.
Overall this is a pretty good list, I of course disagree on some rankings but better than most for me and I appreciate that you included great players from the Soviet Union who were never allowed to play in the NHL.
Again I think this is a very good and informed list but now let me mention some disagreements that leap to mind:
1) My top 5 in order: Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard
2) I have Denis Potvin a lot higher
3) I think a separate list would be interesting where you take out the goaltenders and do a separate list for them. For me I think Ken Dryden, Jacques Plante, Glenn Hall, Terry Sawchuck, and Bernie Parent should get more love. While Tretiak was the USSR goalie for the Summit Series I do not think I would have him even in the top 10 for goalies
3) For the Russians, Kharlamov and Yakushev were great
Top 3 Gretzky no matter how good others players are 1000 more points than #2 spealks for itself.
Orr defence 2 scoring titles and a plus minus unheard of.
B. Hull The most existing player of all time 60's player of the decade how many pro sports stars had and entire league built around them ( WHA )
Not only is Bure only #90, but I can't believe how Crosby and Ovechkin are on this list and Stamkos isn't.
I agree . Cam Neely should have been listed . And also agree on Bobby Orr being Number 1 . He is, was and always will be better than that cry Baby Gretzky
Mike Modano? I didnt see him in your list. If he is there and I somehow missed it I apoligize in advance. But he shouldnt be kept out of anyones top 100. swap him with Lindros
I've done a lot of work on statistics for the NHL and adjusting for era. Crosby absolutely belongs on the list - he's the 3rd highest on my list after Lemieux and Gretzky for points per game (I only calculate players since 67-68 season). Ovechkin also ranks high, ahead of Bossy, ahead of Hull, ahead of Lafleur adjusting for era. Of course, most of those guys had some slower years at the end of careers that brought down their average a bit. Malkin is even a tad higher than Ovechkin, he should be on there. I've also done work with goalie save percentages adjusting for era, while the list is limited (no save, shots against data prior to early 80s) - Roy and Hasek absolutely should be ahead of Brodeur, so very well done. Here are the exact numbers (calculated at 82 games) adjusted for era.
Mario Lemieux, 61.623goals, 153.88points
Wayne Gretzky, 44.957goals, 143.67points
Gretzky's best 10 year run, 56.412goals, 162.683points (79-80 to 88-89)
Sidney Crosby, 44.506goals, 125.71points
Bobby Orr, 33.667goals, 114.09points
*For reference, Paul Coffey is 83 points, Ray Bourque is 75 points
Evgeni Malkin, 42.608goals, 111.61points
Alex Ovechkin, 57.751goals, 108.82points
Jaromir Jagr, 41.901goals, 104.58points (10 year best 112 points)
Mike Bossy, 53.134goals, 104.41points
Dominik Hasek, .917 save percentage
Patrick Roy, .913 save percentage
Tuukka Rask, .910 save percentage
Henrik Lundqvist, .907 save percentage
Roberto Luongo, .906 save percentage
Ed Belfour, .903 save percentage
Martin Brodeur, .903 save percentage
CROSBY SHOULD NOT BE THAT HIGH AND WHERES MODANO?
Adjusted for era? Crosby should never be listed near Gretzky or Lemieux on any list..
The greatest American scorer in hockey history is left off this list? Modano was one of the top 10 most talented players of the 90s and early 2000s. He went head to head with Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, and defeated all of them with the exception of Yzerman. Played an extremely high skilled game in a an era of tight checking and neutral zone trap defenses. Single handily grew hockey in not only Texas but, the south as well. Was the key component in the 1999 Dallas Stars championship and went on to score nearly 600 goals, play 20 seasons, and do as much as anyone for the growth and development of American hockey. That's just my take on it but, from someone who played hockey in the south; without Mike Modano I wouldn't have been introduced to the greatest game on earth.
Let me get this straight ... a goalie who played 30 games against professionals (half a season) in total gets to be called one of the greatest of all time?
Seriously ... Tretiak has NO place on a greatest list. He was an all-time great in European and Olympic hockey, but he only played a handful of games against NHL players. A few great ones, a bunch of average and mediocre games, and several bad ones. When his team needed him most -- in the last 4 games of the '72 series -- he let in 17 goals (6 in the final game!) Not a clutch goalie by anyone's standards.
Brodeur vs. Hasek.
Hasek would have had a 1.00 GAA if he'd played behind The Devils' defensive system. If Brodeur had played for The Sabres, we wouldn't even be talking about him.
With a list of hockey greatest legends controversy. Imagine what if included the pre-NHL era with guys like Fred "Cyclone" Taylor, Frank McGee or including the players who did a long career in the AHL and others minor leagues like Fred Glover, Willie Marshall and Jody Gage?
Lidstrom at 21?
To do what he did, in that era, for that long, at that level....
He played 20 seasons and 20 postseasons. He played in over 97% of all games possible.
Just insane.
Crosby ranked as high as he is? What so look at everyone below him you are telling me Crosby is better than all of them yes he should be on the list but more in the 60s-70s range if I am wrong please tell me how
Why is Jagr so low and Crosby so high? Seriously?
The number three (soon to be number two) scorer of all time. Has played in many different eras of hockey and can still rack up stats at age 44. If this list is legends, Jagr should be way higher. No offense to Crosby fans, but he's nowhere near Jagr status.
Were you high when you thought up this list?
Where the heck is Iginla?
I agree Jimmy V ...I'm a Pens fan, Crosby would be Joe Sakic if he played in the 80's & 90's...Jagr @44 still can play with these guys..
Crosby is a top 5 player and Malkin is top 20 and jagr needs too be way higher than that
As much as I respect Crosby, the Sedins are the best with the puck. They are by far the most underrated players in the world, nobody can do what they can do, they turn anyone they play with into a 20 goal scorer.
Although Pelletier is a legitimate writer on the history of chess there are a glaring, and surprising, problems with the list. First, is the absence of Emile Bouchard. He played in Richards shadow, but arrived before Richard had a huge impact in literally saving the franchise. I'm stunned by Pelletier leaving him off. Another is the Ted Kennedy is probably much, much higher in the ranking. No Leaf contributed more to the franchise than he did. The other is saying Roy is "universally" regarded as best ever. Of course it's not universally accepted. Roy was great, but several experts argue others were better. It's a fun list, bit, but far from serious.
Well at least 5 don't belong.Mike Gartner,Ray Bourque,Dino cicerelli,Steve Yzerman and Brendan Shanahan should be there all 500 goal scorers and Bourque 400+most points all time by a defenseman.
Your poll makes absolutely no sense. Putting Jagr at 26 loses you any credibility.
where is Pavel Datsyuk he should be in the top 30! You guys who made this website only know the top 5 change it up seriously!
Datsyuk top 30 all time?..keep smoking, that's a joke...90 is even too high
Your assessment of Bobby Clarke is way out of line . He is in top 3 in plus minus of forwards in NHL history. 2 time cup winner and reason NHL all stars won in Russia and Russian lost in philly only NHL team to beat them.clarke played on power play penalty killler and took every important face off in flyer history / beat the bruins with Orr and Esposito and when the puck went in the corner everyone knew Clarke was coming out with it just ask komolov
Forgot to say bobby Clarke's overtime goal in game 2 Stanley cup finals against Bruins is Philadelphia's greatest sports moment of all time who is on this list can claim that
The flyers beating the 73-74 Bruins with Orr Esposito and hall of fame lineup is as big of an upset as Us winning gold in 1980
You left out one of the greatest defensemen of all-time Art Ross! The first super star goalie George Vezina as well!!
Excellent list, Very Well done. Despite some minor quibles about order I agree with these selections almost completly. I appreciated that a number of old timers from the pre-original 6 era, who are almost always forgotten, were included. I can tell a great deal of research and thought went into putting this list together.
My only significant disagreements are that Brodure should be higher, right behied Roy IMHO, and that Jarome Iginla, Cam Neely and Igor larianov were left off. Iginla's 2 Rocket Richard Trophys, Art Ross Trophy, toughness, leadership and class seems comprable to Ted Kennedy and Bill Cook. Larianov should be between teammates Fetisov and Makarov, and rest of the argument for more Russians has already been made above. Neely is harder to place but should definitly be on the list somewhere.
Absolutely fantastic list - albeit flawed (don't fret, there is no list any human could conceive of that would satisfy all observers).
Jagr HAS to be higher. For all of those making the "era" claims, come on, be consistent. Orr was a genius but he played in a league that had less teams (and somehow lost to Clarke's Flyer's team in the Stanley Cup). Jarome Iginla is a superior player to some of the names mentioned on this list. Some of the Soviet era players should also be on here, Kharlamov, especially.
Hasek is the greatest goaltender of all-time. Brendan Shanahan should be on here as well. Crosby's recent exploits suggest to be that he really is a top 20 player, and before it's all said and done, a top 10, player, of all-time. Mike Modano should be on here as well. I think, if you were to re-do the list (and it's a great list btw), you would be more inclined to make a separate list for goaltenders (it would free up room for deserved superstars like Iginla and Modano).
Very thoughtful and conscientious to include a healthy sample from every era. (But Iginla has to be on this list, some of those Flames teams didn't have any talent around him and he was still a stud). Lemieux, by eye-test standards, was the best ever. But on balance, Gretzky HAS to be #1. When you have 1000 more points than #2, that is mind-bogging. He was also he most intelligent player of all time. Datsuk gets my vote for best stick-handler of all time.
Great list. Bravo.
Unfortunately, all players today except maybe 10 would be the best players on this list. The game has increased in speed and skill by leaps and bounds. The NHL of the '70's looks like top level beer league now.
see if you take gretskys first 10 vs orr's wayne is number one period!
Maurice Rocket Richard is the BEST hockey player ever, he is the first player to score 50 goals, he is the first player to score 50 goals in 50 games, he is the first player to score 500 goals, he won 8 stanley cup and there's even a trophy to his name give to the best goalscorer of the season.
ROCKET RICHARD #1
Based on talent along Jagr is a top 10 player, but you choose to put him in the 20's? I guess winning five Art Ross trophies, four in the dead puck era while putting up over a hundred points each time, two Stanley Cups, a Hart Trophy, an olympic gold medal, putting up 123 points in your age 35 season, all while losing two full seasons to lockouts and playing three in the KHL when you probably could be putting up 70 a season in the NHL don't really bring enough to the table to put him top 20 all time.
Silly.
Bobby Orr has to be #1 without a shadow of a doubt. Two reasons:
First, the only defenseman to lead the league in scoring.
If that's not enough:
Second, he changed the way the game was played for all defensemen. Without Orr, Paul Coffey doesn't exist. Without Paul Coffey, Gretzky doesn't have the impact that he did.
Nuff said.
As an aside..
Mike Bossy is probably the best example of "power forward". He had ZERO seasons under 50 goals. Different game, I know, but he belongs higher, and it's okay that Neely isn't on the list because of lack of longevity. If Neely doesn't get injured, and he wins a cup, we might be having a different discussion.
When you consider everything that makes
a great Hockey player Skills,Scoring,Defense,
Endurance,Toughness,Leadership,Respect from fans
and other players then Gordie Howe is number one.
He was all these and even raised 2 boys that
played Profesional Hockey.
Bobby Orr, a man among boys.
THE most incredible, impressive, skilled hockey player of all time....no one else even close. You all know that.
Bryan Trottier is the closest thing to Gordie Howe since Howe's Cup winning days.He was a two way complete player hit like a mule scored often and consistently and defended nearly as well. Calder Art Ross Conn Smythe Hart plus minus leader face off master and tough as nails and remembered his Mom and Dad at the end of interviews. His skill and total game transcended decades. All GMs only wish a package like Trottier existed today. Scored 5 points in his first game on Long Island. He scored 1000 points 96 games faster than Messier He ought to be ranked much higher but the Islander Dynasty has been disrespected forever so he can't expect a change now.
Billy Smith was the greatest play off goalie in history. 88-36 and Roy tied him at 88-50 . Roy won 6 series in a row Smith won 19. Smith shut out and swept the highest scoring team in history and did the same to Gretzky after Smith and the Isles were well past their prime.He would not allow his team to lose more that 2 games to any opponent. The Isles won when they were supposed to and won when they weren't supposed to often due to Smith and Trottier. Bossy scored his 500th goal 250 plus games faster that Lafleur. Check your rankings.
I agree with Phil Esposito. Listen to what he said,"Greatest all round hockey player" # 9GH - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu3tvR30n1g
dissapointed not to see Rod Gilbert but I understand I'm pretty biased in saying that. All around good list though, it's literally impossible to put together a list that everyone will agree with
Where is Dale Hawerchuck????
Anyone that truly pays attention to hockey and the unique skills that players bring would laugh at Martin Brodeur being this low on the list. Gotta love the one anonymous guy who said he is not in top 2 in save%.... If you ever watched a Brodeur game in your life you would understand why.... his stick handling ability led to about 10 less shots against him per game b/c opponents had to skate the puck into the zone vs. dump and chase( watch a highlight real of scott stevens laying out people and wonder to yourself why wouldnt they dump and chase... see "brodeur").... was he the best pure saver... no,,, imho hasek was,,, but his size, ability with the stick and unorthodox nature created nightmares for teams that were trained to play a particular way. Brodeur is similar to Jerry Rice... both were not at their peak the best ever, but for the level of greatness they had for such a prolonged time, they have to be acknowledged as the GOAT.
Gretzky made those around him better than any other player did for his teammates, and made Hockey what it is today with all the expansion teams--Greatest Ever..
You lost me after the first line.....He would have been even better if he stayed in Edmonton.
I'm 72 years old and watched (and listened) to hockey for 66 years.
My criteria is different from stats. Who got on the ice and during that shift had the most influence on the game. Not just put the puck in a the net but made the plays, back checked, showed determination. Goalies left out as makes no sense to rank them beside other players. Excluding current players.
B Orr
W Gretzky
B Hull
S Makita
B. Gainey
R Bourque
L Robinson
M Richard
J Belliveau
M Lemieux
Best goalies...hated them both because hey were so good. T Sawchuck and R Crozier ( both R Wings)
Best player skills
Orr
Gretzky
Mahovolich
The whole mid 1970's Montreal Canadiens hockey team. Well, 90% of it.
I'm too young for the Rocket but no player after him was more exciting than The Golden Jet, Bobby Hull. No dump it in and chase. It was carry it in and BLAST. Leach, Lafleur, Bossy etc. All followed his style
Funny how time fades the spotlight of some players. In the mid 1960's 'the' player was Frank Mahovlich..bigger in the press than Howe, Belliveau and othe greats during those great Leaf years.
To allof you crosby haters. This is just an example why he should be above ovechkin and the cry baby jagr on the list. Crosby just scored his 1000 and 1002 pts in tonights game. Earning him the 12th fastest 1000 pts in nhl history. 6 games ahead of jagr and 123 games ahead of ovechkin. So if that doesnt earn him a higher spot on the list of the greatest players of all time then i dont know what does.
Hockey is a two way game. Its much more than scoring goals.Number one is Orr. Up there are Belliveau, Gretzky, Jagr, Potvin, Howe, Hull, Keon. I actually take Lemaire over Lafleur. I like the choice above of Bob Gainey. A notch down but good are the scorers...Lafleur, Bossy, Esposito, Crosby, Bossy. Then the workers...H.Richard, Sittler, Trottier, Clark, Mikita, Dionne
I've come up with a top 10 ranking after much studying and analyzing, but my list goes as follows:
1. Wayne Gretzky - Not just great scorer/playmaker, but ultimate teammate and leader.
2. Red Kelly - No coincidence he won eight Cups (four each with Toronto and Detroit), offensively dominant in a tight-scoring era, even better defensively.
3. Patrick Roy - Record three Conn Smythes, he always gave his team a chance to win.
4. Gordie Howe - Original power forward, could do everything and lead the league in scoring.
5. Bobby Orr - Catalyst in NHL's transitioning to high-scoring era, exciting offensive blueliner, still defensively strong.
6. Mario Lemieux - Incredible talent, endured much health adversity
7. Jean Beliveau - Leader of a dynasty, original Lemieux
8. Dave Keon/Steve Yzerman - I couldn't avoid a tie, but both were tremendous two-way players and leaders, delivering difficult wins.
9. Maurice Richard - Hyper-intense Rocket fuelled the original Habs dynasty, amidst early French social struggles.
10. Denis Potvin/Eddie Shore - Again, couldn't avoid typing, but both defensemen dominated game, larger-than-life leaders.
You don't make this list by being a great passer.
Yeah, but remember the dynasty and Stanley Cups Lindros won for that Colorado Avalanche.
A few points:
1) Any "All Time" list of players should NEVER EVER include active players, or recently retired ones. Because they could come back (ie Gordie Howe, LaFleur, Lemieux). First, the "All Time" list quickly becomes an argument about today's players, which defeats the entire purpose of "All Time". Second, current players haven't achieved all they're going to achieve, pro & con. Over the decades, LOADS of players have had 2-3 100+ point seasons and two seasons later are 3rd stringers on the Leafs. Sometimes individual success is purely a result of "team chemistry".
2) Chill out with the arguments over placing, folks. Once you get outside the Top 10, rankings barely matter. The difference between player #23 and #98 is puny, probably not much more than one playoff game shot that hit the post vs one that went in.
3) Bonus points: Longevity matters. (ie Gordie, Dave Keon, Bobby Hull, Andy Bathgate and many old-timers) Hockey's a tough game. Just lasting 20 years is a major accomplishment, especially in the pre-helmet era where stars weren't so "babied". Many old-time stars had to work summer jobs, usually manual labour at a time when "workplace safety" was a novel idea. So, injuries could get you at any time.
Also: Any top player that played 2 positions (Dit Clapper, Red Kelly, Mark Howe) deserve addition acclaim. It's hard enough to be good at one position, never mind two.
Fedorov playing center, right wing and defense.
Lindros is too high. He was the complete package, but he didn't have a particular transcendent quality that he's remembered for (like Orr's skating or Gretzky's vision), and he had a career that was severely plagued by injuries that kept him from achieving as much as he could/should have and his last few seasons were nothing special at all. I'd be all right with having him in the 90-100 range, though.
Toews is too high. So is Keon. These guys were very good players and winners, but their achievements exceed their actual skill levels. I don't think watch games just to see Toews. Basically, my reason for why he should be lower is the opposite of my reason for why Lindros should be lower: Lindros dominated and was a special attraction, but wasn't able to achieve THAT much whereas Toews has won three games and hardware but has never stood out as an all-time great because of his skills (as opposed to smart two-way play). I'd put Toews 98th or so.
Datsyuk really shouldn't be on the list. He was a bit overrated. I mean, he was very, very good; however, some acted as if he was the best player in the NHL even though he really came close to winning the scoring Title, didn't win any Harts and won "only" two Stanley Cups playing for stacked teams. For a guy who didn't quite make it to 1000 career points, did he really do enough to be worthy of being considered a top 100 hockey player of all-time? I'd put him in the 100-150 range.
Ron Francis is too high. It seems to me this is a list geared more toward talent level and impact on a game-per-game basis rather than one that puts a great deal of value in longevity and career numbers (how else does one explain the absence of Mike Gartner?). Well, was Francis really much or any better than Adam Oates or Joe Thornton as a hockey player? Sure, he put up better numbers due to longevity/playing during the high-scoring 80's/early 90's, but was he a more talented player or better play maker than either?
Bucyk is too high...
Overall, it's not a bad list...
Arguments could be made for the following players, though all of them might belong in the 100-150 range instead:
Adam Oates
Joe Thornton
Evgeni Malkin
Mike Modano
Mats Sundin
Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Gartner
Darryl Sittler
Patrick Kane
Alex Delvecchio
Did some actually suggest CLARK (as in WENDEL) is one of the best players ever??? I assume that poster just spelled Bobby Clarke's name wrong. I really so.
I'm a Leafs fan and respect Wendel, but man is the guy overrated by some. He finished in the top 50 in points in a season once in his career. He's a top 500 player of all-time... maybe.
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