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Niklas Lidstrom is just a wonderful hockey player. If you ever get a chance to watch him live, or even just watching a Wings game on TV, try watching Lidstrom instead puck every time #5 is out on the ice. He is so flawless in his positioning and his execution that you will so much about the game simply by observation.In theDec 18th, 2007 issue, The Hockey News crowned Niklas Lidstrom as the best European born and trained player in NHL history. Non NHL players, such as Soviet era stars like Valeri Kharlamov and Vladislav Tretiak, were not considered. Neither were players who were born in Europe but trained in Canada, such as Stan Mikita.
To be named the top European player of all time is quite a feather in Lidstrom's cap. There is no shortage of candidates, including fellow defenders Borje Salming, Sergei Zubov, Viacheslav Fetisov and Teppo Numminen, super scorers like Jari Kurri, Peter Stastny, Jaromir Jagr, Pavel Bure, Peter Bondra and Teemu Selanne, and complete threats like Igor Larionov, Sergei Fedorov, Peter Forsberg and Mats Sundin.
Lidstrom has been getting a lot of ink lately, and it is about time. But I do find it interesting that there is a growing movement to crown Lidstrom as the second greatest defenseman of all time, behind the incomparable Bobby Orr of course.
Now traditionally the label goes to Montreal great Doug Harvey, with real old timer Eddie Shore also ranked right up there. More modern contenders include Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin, Raymond Bourque, and Paul Coffey.
Now I'm not too sure Lidstrom truly ranks. Back in August I looked at the top 36 players of all time, and included Lidstrom as the 8th best defender behind Orr, Harvey, Bourque, Fetisov, Shore, Potvin, and Robinson. Red Kelly and Dit Clapper both outranked Lidstrom in my listing back then, too. Both were superstar defensemen who also were superstar forwards.
I'm not prepared to re-open that debate right now, but I'm also not prepared to declare Lidstrom to be a better player than Doug Harvey. I don't really have an issue with anyone slotting him as high as 3rd overall.
In August I ranked Bourque in the three spot, which is interesting, because if there was one player in hockey history that could be a carbon copy of Niklas Lidstrom it is Ray Bourque. I'm really high on that comparison because they played very similar styles. Perhaps Bourque was a bit more flashy offensively, but he played in an era that demanded it, but otherwise both are near perfect defenders.
So let's compare the legacies of Bourque and Lidstrom. Lidstrom's career stats are shown as of game 32 of the 2007-08 season.
Again, I'm not too concerned about the scoring stats. Bourque played in a higher offensive era, and a 37 year old Lidstrom still has probably at least 3 more solid years to add to his offensive numbers. This year he's right near the top of the defenseman scoring race again this year, too.
I've highlighted the last two comparables. Both players sit at 5 Norris Trophies each, signifying how many times in their career that they were honoured as the best defenseman in the game. Barring injury, Lidstrom very likely could add another title this season, and who knows how many more. If he were to somehow challenge Bobby Orr's 8 titles or Doug Harvey's 7, then I think I'd be ready to give Lidstrom the nod over Bourque.An interesting way to break the current 5-5 deadlock is to look at the number of times each player finished as the runner up in Norris Trophy balloting - Bourque 6 times, Lidstrom 3.
Another pretty telling stat for me is post season All Star awards. In 19 of his 22 seasons Bourque was either on the first or second team, including in each of his first 15 NHL seasons. Lidstrom has "only" been honoured 8 times in 15 complete seasons, with more sure to follow. But it took him 7 years before his first all star nod.
It is the only statistical anomaly between these two great defenders. A case could even be made to suggest Bourque faced stiffer competition for All Star honours. As such, I conclude Ray Bourque's legacy ranks him ahead of the still growing legacy of Niklas Lidstrom. But only for the time being.
10 comments:
How are and how were all stars chosen to play? Does the all star game really show who is better?
Yzerman never once made either the First or Second All Star Team.
i like both players alot,but you have to go with ray.i'm glad you included the times they were runners up,ray got hose'd more than a few times.i'd put niklas ahead of anyone but orr and bourque!(never saw harvey play)
I think you leave out an important factor when you compare Ray and Nick. Ray wore the "C" and was usually the best player on the ice for the Bruins for most of his career there so he was always in the limelight and forefront so therefore well known. When you look at Nick and see he played behind one of the top 5 all time (IMO)in Steve Yzerman and the SLEW of top talent Detroit has had during Nick's career, its easy to understand why he was overlooked. After this season you add a 6th Norris, already a Conn Smyth and now the first born and trained European captain to win a Stanley Cup and he is still playing at the top of his game, he's exceeded Ray in all aspects except points and seasons. I think the choice is easier to make now and clearly should be noted as one of the Top 3 of all time, if not Top 2.
RyGuy: Yzerman was a first team all star in 99/00. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_2000.html
he's not north american therefore never got the due respect. nuff' said
Has anyone considered that Bourque played in an era with a lot of other great defensemen? The reason Bourque had only five Norrises is that he wasn't competing against a bare handful of greats like Lidstrom has. When he broke in, he was competing against Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin, Borje Salming and Brad Park ... then it was Paul Coffey, Rod Langway, Al MacInnis, Larry Murphy, Chris Chelios, Brian Leetch and Scott Stevens.
No way you rank Lidstrom against Orr, Shore, Bourque or Harvey.
When there career's are over Lidstrom is the clear winner. Being the first Euro Captain to win the cup gives him the clear nod in my opinion. Furthermore I dare say if he wins a cup this year (09) it'd be silly not to include him top three all time D wise.
Bubba will always be ranked higher than lidstrom. Why Because of 21 yrs playing at a high level.
When he won the Stanley Cup with Colorado, They were stacked but Ray played great in the regular season and playoffs. His consistent
play for 21yrs is unmatched. Ray could do more than Nick. Plus I had the privilidge of spending some time with Ray. He's a great guy. Very humble. He's a role model.
There are some pretty silly comments above; for instance, what does Lidstrom being a European-born captain have to do with whether he's better than anyone?
Now Lidstrom is an all-time great, no error, but the proof of the pudding is this: Lidstrom's first Norris came only in Bourque's final season. In the nine previous years they played head-to-head, Bourque won two Norrises to his none. Bourque was a Second Team All-Star at age 19; at 19, Lidstrom was still years away from the NHL. Bourque was a season-ending All-Star his first fifteen seasons. Lidstrom was only once his first six. They're both +24 a season over their careers, with Lidstrom playing for much stronger teams, so the question is this: is Lidstrom so hugely better defensively than Bourque was to offset that Bourque scored nearly twice as many goals over his career?
No. Not remotely. Bourque competed for awards and honors against some of the greatest defensemen in the game's history and outdid them all. Lidstrom has won most of his silverware against a weak field; who among Lidstrom's contemporaries the last ten years would you say is the equal of Al MacInnis, Scott Stevens, Paul Coffey, Brian Leetch, Larry Murphy or Chris Chelios in their primes?
The four greatest defensemen in hockey history are named Orr, Shore, Harvey and Bourque. Lidstrom sure is great, but he's not their equal.
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