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With all the talk of the rise of hockey’s new era, with the soon to be epic battle of Sidney Crosby vs. Alexander Ovechkin already topping the card, it is pretty easy to day dream about the last great hockey duel – Wayne Gretzky vs. Mario Lemieux.For much of my youth, that comparison always was there. It was impossible to avoid. For a decade there had been only two choices. And you had to choose.
Growing up on Canada’s west coast, I was born to be a Gretzky fan, even though I cheered on the sad-sack hometown Vancouver Canucks. It was impossible to not witness the glory years of the Edmonton Oilers, though. Always on TV in the west, I cheered on The Great One more than any other player in my lifetime. I continued to enthusiastically cheer him on during the Hollywood years, hoping against fate that he could capture another Stanley Cup down there. And of course, time and again he brought glory to our country.
You could definitely suggest that the reason that I, as an impressionable youngster, became the rabid hockey fan I am today is Wayne Gretzky.
Sadly, I never gave Mario Lemieux the same chance.
Part of it is due to the time zone differences and not having access to many Penguins games on TV back in those days, but largely it was because I was a Gretzky fan.
Right or wrong, most definitely wrong with the hindsight of adulthood, that’s just the way it was. As much as you secretly appreciated both, a true fan had to choose one or the other.
I chose Gretzky, largely because of west coast bias and the fact he was long established before this distant easterner who dared to challenge his greatness arrived on the scene. But I also chose Gretzky because he was personable. You could not help but want the guy at the top of hockey’s food chain, setting the standards not only for future hockey stars, but your children and for yourself.
For much of Lemieux’s career, he was dubbed as cold, indifferent and aloof, although it turned out he was just misunderstood. Later in his career he finally became the charming prince everyone wants the top player in hockey to be, the impossible standard that Gretzky set.
My attitude towards Mario Lemieux changed briefly after leading the nation to victory at the Canada Cup in 1987 and again after his amazing comeback from a difficult bout with cancer. My mindset on Lemieux had changed, but somehow it was always more about appreciation of him than love for him, and more respect for his abilities than admiration for his ways.As a result, I ended up not truly experiencing Mario Lemieux’s greatness, a greatness that surpassed Gretzky’s. I saw the highlights on TV, and the two Stanley Cup finals on CBC, but I missed so much. The guy battled through chronic back injuries, and cancer for Christ’s sake, and I never warmed up to him because I was a Gretzky guy.
So heed my advice, hockey fans. While I watched Gretzky play hockey as if he were conducting his orchestra, I missed Lemieux’s one man band of equally epic shinny music. Don’t be silly enough to think you must choose between Sidney Crosby and Alexander Ovechkin. Take in everything they have to offer. Don’t just appreciate them, admire them.
Share Your Memories of Gretzky vs. Lemieux using the comments section below!
24 comments:
Hey, Sweet comparison and congrats on getting picked up by Paul over at Kukla's Korner!
I'm sure you received a huge traffic spike today.
Anyway, I am doing an article on Phil Esposito tomorrow at NHL Digest and I would love it if you would post your thoughts in a comment.
Thanks and have a great weekend.
Ty
Very eloquently put. One of the best comparisons I've ever read. Keep up the good work!
hey... i know you tell me to not choose, but i just think Crosby is a baby. Ovechkin for life. All though I am a Devil fan, I have appreciation for Ovechkin, but not Crosby because whenever he gets hit or whenever he thinks something is a penalty, then he cries to the ref! GO DEVILS!!
(and ovechkin)
I felt exactly like you and I also see Crosby and Ovechkin as gifts to hockey - not a debate. I enjoyed this trip down memory lane.
Gretzky was like Crosby once ...flopping, diving to get the referee's attention ...He grew out of it !! Give the Kid a chance, he just turned 20 !! Again, the suggestion was not to choose a side, but I can't help from doing it ! I think the Kid is the real deal as Ovechkin will be a Selanne type of player ...GREAT, but not quite EXCEPTIONAL ..Anyhow, both are in the eastern conference so I'll have the privilege to watch em both !!
I think that was a great comparison but iits hard not to compare Crosby and Ovechkin. Crosby leads the PENGUINS by ovechkin is just a scoring guy not a leader.
Wayne is the greatest athlete of all time and a true ambassador to his sport. No one in the history of any sport has done as much or continue to do what this man does for hockey. Mario began his career as a hold out which put me off. There are thousands of kids out there who sacrifice everything along with their parents just to get a shot at the NHL and he decides he is above the game. Eric Lindros learned well and took self importance to the next level.
Mario is awesome, undeniably and saved a franchise. Gretzky was great while saving and growing an entire professional sport. Gretzky vs Lemieux there is no contest. They retired #66 in Pittsburgh they retired #99 from the league. No other athlete in the history of the world can claim that. The rivalry should be Gretzky versus Jesus. Hopefully one day they will both make a comeback.
Scott
Calgary
There is no real yway to say who is better really. Wayne scored a zillion goals and assists, but on the oilers he also had great wingers, so alot of the glory is to be spred out. Mario had jagr..that was pretty much it. however marios numbers wernt as great AND when wayne went to LA (a really crappy team) he was STILL the scoring point leader.
and with crosby over ovechkin, ovechkin scores a tone of goals, he just got his 40th. crosby has like, one goal, but 80 assists (an overexageration but you get my point) but also, crosby has great team mates and ovechkin has...no one.
Hey,
I am from Pittsburgh and priveledged to have seen mario play the game, he was incredible to watch,he had more power than Gretzky, just as fast and a better shot.What kept Mario from the top of the record books was his health. Gretzky played in 500 more games than lemieux giving the great one the statistical victory. That said, 100 years from now the stats are all that will matter. Sorry la magnifique
Wayne and Mario were so completely different. The uncanny playmaking of Wayne seem to stem from his ability to see into the future. Wayne knew where everyone, and the puck, was; and they were all going to be. Interestingly, it was this same ability that seemed to make it impossible to "line him up" for a monster hit. Something that everyone who called him "protected", failed to understand. He was elusive.
Mario on the other hand, came right at you and just outdid you. If it took strength, either physical or skating strength, fine, he was better than everyone at that. If it took skating finesse that was fine too, he was better than everyone at that as well. Stick handling wizardry? Yeah, he was the best. Pure shooting sniper powers? No problem. Some "Gretzkyesque" playmaking needed? That was no problem either. Every conceivable set of hockey skills was not only his at the highest possible level, but it all seemed rather easy to him (hence the "lazy" label he had for a time). I don't think anyone can argue that if Lemieux had been healthier many, if not most, of Gretzky's records would have fallen (Gretzky himself has said as much). But that is a very big "if". And health is, of course, a big part of any contact sport. So Gretzky has to be seen as the greatest player of all time.
All that being said, those of us who were lucky enough to live the age of Gretzky and Lemieux can just be happy to have seen them both.
im-from-pittsburgh-and-its-bullshit-when-they-say-wayne-had-more-help-than-mario.look-at-his-list-of-help.
4th-all-time-Ron-Francis-1798pts
7th-all-time-Mario-Lemieux-1723pts
9th-all-time-Jaromir-Jagr-1599pts
12th-all-time-Paul-Coffey-1531pts
14th-all-time-Bryan-Trottier-1425pts
19th-all-time-Luc-Robatille-1394pts
21st-all-time-Mark-Recchi-1381pts
gretzky-had-messier-coffey-kurri-and-damphfousse-lemieux-had-three-times-the-help-he-did
Some excellent points on the timeless subject of comparison of ultimate hockey greatness.
Like most hockey fans who were lucky enough to experience the era of Wayne and Mario, I have utmost respect for each of them, as unbelievably gifted athletes and leaders whose contributions to sport and society are the qualities of genuine role models.
As a lifelong hockey fan and also a lover of classical music, in my mind the parallel to Wayne and Mario was Mozart and Beethoven. Each being magnificent beyond comparison to all others, with overlapping careers although not at their peaks at the same time. Thinking of this analogy, in my mind I believe that Wayne and Mario may prove to be the greatest over a time span of several centuries (just as Mozart and Beethoven have remained the unsurpassed greatest in the field of classical music).
Part of this is because they performed in an era of hockey dominated by offense. And this was maybe the greatest legacy of Gretzky. Gretzky and the Oilers proved that, with truly exceptional talent and a coach who was bold enough to defy conventional wisdom, an all-out scoring machine could win championships.
In the era of free agency and salary caps, the greater parity that results means that it is very unlikely for any team to have such depth of scoring talent as either Wayne's Oilers or Mario's Penguins. The game has therefor regressed to be dominated again by defensive systems, which is much easier to teach and win championships with.
So it seems more likely than before that most of Gretzky's amazing scoring records may never be broken. Think about what it would take for them to be broken. It would need another player who was as much greater than the rest of his team mates and opponents as Gretzky was; and a reversal to an era based on pure offense; plus a team of similar greatness (and youth) as the Oilers had, and a coach who designed the team around this even though defense usually wins championships. And Gretzky's greatest records are his career records, which require not only such excellence but amazing ability to minimize injury despite being prime target for twenty years.
Only two players transformed the way the game was played: Bobby Orr and Wayne Gretzky; each was so exceptional that the teams built around them raise pure offense to levels not previously seen or believed possible. Perhaps Orr was even more amazing, especially as a defenseman winning the scoring title (twice) and setting the incredible plus-minus record of +121. But Wayne's durability and leadership qualities give him the edge.
Mario was probably more gifted than Wayne, and certainly had the huge advantages of size and reach. His comebacks from serious illness and chronic back injuries were almost unbelievable.
Would Mario have changed the game if his career had preceded Wayne's? That's impossible to say, but it seems unlikely. Indeed, if the Islanders "drive for five" had knocked off the Oilers in 1984 (as they had in 1983), it's very likely that the Oiler team would have been broken up, in order to add more defensive balance, in the belief that pure offense could not win championships.
Finally, in my opinion, the greatest series and talent show was the Canada Cup of 1987. All three games were one-goal games, with the Russians winning the first. Gretzky was the established leader in his prime; Mario was the rising star and played on Wayne's line. Gretzky was the master playmaker and Mario the sharp shooter; the combo was pure magic, almost certainly the best ever. Mario also pointed to this experience of learning from Wayne what it takes to be champion.
Neither one. Bobby Orr. The guy that revolutionized the sport and ushered the modern era.
But, I place 66 ahead of 99. He had the ability to skate through defense, an incredible shot, and he wasn't afraid to get rough when he needed to be play a physical game. That can't be said for Gretzky....not at all. Had Mario been healthy, he may have broken Gretzky's records.
Gretzky's significance (other than all-time point leader) was how well he represented the game during the ESPN/Mass advertising era. This intense spotlight was not available to athletes before then.
1. Orr
2. Lemieux
3. Howe
4. Gretzky
To anonymous,
The list of players that you say Mario played with is accurate, but for how long were each of them on Mario's team? And, how many of them were on the team at the same time. Gretzky's team was loaded with stars, and Mario's team had stars added to it and taken away. His team was never loaded with stars like Gretzky's. Look what Mario Lemieux did for Rob Brown. When he played with Mario he had 239 points in three years. He only scored 438 points total in his entire 19 year career and that includes nhl, ihl, ahl, and whl! Mario Lemieux was the best hockey player to ever put on the skates. Wayne Gretzky was great, Mario was magnificent.
Lemieux was the best player there ever was and ever will be. Just imagine the numbers he could have put up without battling through all those injuries that led to his early retirement, and eventual return. No way in hell Gretzky could have put up the numbers Lemieux did with the same problems Lemieux went through. Lemieux was the most gifted goal scorer of all time and it was an absolute pleasure watching him through all those years.
The difference between Gretzky and Lemieux was their early years; Wayne had an incredible desire and drive to win, and it seems like Lemieux only got that as he matured. But when he did get that taste for winning -- look out.
The biggest knock against Lemieux was injuries -- especially the back problems that dogged him for most of his career and then the Hodgkin's disease that took away more than a season (cumulatively, when you consider the games he missed when on chemotherapy and the season after when anemia took him down).
There is no doubt that Gretzky had the better career, of course. But Lemieux was the better talent.
who ever said lemieux had more help than gretzky obviously never watched a game of hockey in the 1980's. Oilers were a dynasty pens could have only dreamed of being. Lemieux was more talented but injuries diminished what could have been the greatest career of any player ever.
It is generally agreed that Gretzky had a better supporting staff than Lemieux.
That being said, I think Lemieux supporters under appreciate the staff Lemieux did have.
Paul Coffey was an essential key to both 99 and 66's success.
Ron Francis was one of the game's greatest centers, not unlike Mark Messier in every regard other than stature.
Jaromir Jagr was one of the top 10 offensive players in hockey history
Bryan Trottier was a great veteran presence.
Rick Tocchet and Kevin Stevens were great physical presences who admittedly benefited offensively from Mario.
A young Mark Recchi was emerging as a great two way player.
Lemieux's support cast was pretty damn good.
People forget Mario was drafted on the worst team in the league as most #1 picks usually do, while Gretz lucked out and was sold to the Oilers from the folded WHA's Indiana Pacers. Infact, the NHL had a hand in ensuring the best player in the world at that time went to the best possible team. The only reason Gretz played there was because it was the only league that accepted under 18 players. It took years for Mario to build up, including the Pens team around him. Gretz only needed 2-3 years for him and the Oilers to form their dynasty. Gretzky on the worst team in the league and Lemieux on the Oilers, I'm sure the story would have unfolded a lot differently... it's scary for Mario to even come so close to Gretzky numbers despite the huge advantage Wayne had...
Like a few lucky souls above, I've had the pleasure of growing up watching both play. With today's faster NHL with better defense and goaltending, Gretzky would get only 2/3 of his points. Watching back his highlight goals on youtube, reminded me of how he scores most of his goals. They are only as hard as bantum shots and the sucky goalies with the tiny shin-pads back then just let them squeak by. 2 out of those 3 goals of his, some from the blueline would for sure be stopped in the NHL today. But Mario's prime came at a time when the neutral zone trap was becoming a mastered art, clutching and grabbing rising at an all-time high, he had to work hard for his goals, would still maintain all the points that he got even with today's faster, defensive NHL.
Gretzky was pretty damn good but got lucky playing at the right place and the right time on the right team, he would be something more of a "Paul Kariya" if playing today in his prime.
I have one more thing to say... all our opinions are mostly from hockey fans, and a few possible amatuer hockey players who may know a thing or two about the game like myself... but how about the opinions of people who know the most - the players and coaches themselves. It's been widely known that Scotty Bowman, the winningest coach ever, Mark Messier, the second leading points leader ever, and even Wayne Gretzky himself have said Mario Lemieux was probably the most gifted and talented hockey player ever to lace up a pair of skates. Like some mentioned above, Gretzky even said himself Mario would have probably beat his records if it weren't for his ailing health...
Wayne Gretzky "wins". But Mario Lemieux was better, it's that simple.
Wayne Gretzky has more assists than anyone else in NHL history has points. Argument over.
I think RCheli said it best:
There is no doubt that Gretzky had the better career, of course. But Lemieux was the better talent.
yo! if y'all think a good team don't help out, how come mario beat gretzky in his prime when 99 left da oilers for da kings?! and how come the oilers win another cup WITHOUT gretzky when he goes to the kings?! food for thought. #66=#1! peace out
That's Indiana "Racers", not "Pacers" Gretzky was sold from (wrong sport lol). But that's right, Gretzky was never an NHL "rookie" and couldn't qualify for rookie of the year honors due to his previous pro career as a 17 year old despite a 137pt "rookie" campaign.
Mario wasn't just drafted #1 on the worst team in the league in 1984. He was drafted on what was probably the crappiest NHL team of all time! Apart from Warren Young, Doug Shedden or Mike Bullard, the rest of the 84 pens could have easily been career minor leaguers who wouldn't even dream of an NHL career if it weren't for the expansion that happened in the late 70's early 80's... Mario turned a few of those guys like Rob Brown into stars later on.
And that's what people also forget in this debate. A HUGE factor was Gretzky's timing and the expansion. The NHL underwent major expansion when Gretzky started out, especially when the WHA folded. This totally diluted the talent pool of the NHL for a few years. Which allowed him and the Oilers to dominate until it balanced itself out again. Mario's prime was the nasty clutching/grabbing "garage league" phase of the late 80's, early 90's.
Gretzky backers can never argue why after the Oilers when Wayne left for the Kings, he NEVER could touch Mario at the scoring title again fair and square (and Wayne was at a prime age of 27). The only post-Oiler years Wayne beat Mario was when Lemieux was out with injuries. Look carefully at the stats and compare the post-Oiler years when Mario and Wayne played roughly the same number of games. 1988-89 was a prime example. Le Magnifique owned.
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